<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">All -</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Happy New Year! I hope everyone is having a good year so far. </div><div class="">As mentioned in previous posts to this list - I’m planning/am re-posting some of my previous ‘No Time’ conversations. Conversations with correspondents who wrote in regards to the ’No Time’ article I wrote/posted at: <<a href="http://www.robsworld.org/notime.html" class="">http://www.robsworld.org/notime.html</a>>. I will be re-posting, dissecting, discussing that correspondence here; on the ‘Akinetochronism’ forum/mailing list. Here (see below) is another early discussion I engaged in with a correspondent. Please feel free to agree, disagree, or discuss these ‘No Time / No Motion’ ideas.</div><div class=""><br class="">In this particular discussion/conversation I received an email from ‘Jonny P’ - In that email he made several comments on the ‘dimensional’ aspects of time, he quoted scripture and he mused on how things act upon something or things are acted upon. My reply examined how all things are interconnected and which ’things’ are capable of exercising ‘free will’. Finally (towards the end of the email), I repeat my ideas about shadows and higher dimensional objects.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Note that some ‘redaction’ has been applied to protect Jonny's identity and occasionally for brevity’s sake. In the case of email addresses or full names, I simply omit the full email address or name. </div><div class=""><br class="">- Robert<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class="">In this reposting, I have added my responses to the original post from Jonny P. Jonny’s original email arrived on the 13th of Sep, 2004. My reply was sent on the 19th of Sep, 2004. Jonny’s comments are in dark blue (with a single indent/quotation level). My comments are in light blue (with a double indent/quotation level).</font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Hello Robert,</div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">Jonny - Sorry for the late response. I waited until the weekend to read & respond. You sure had a lot to say. I'm glad you enjoyed the article. Perhaps you'll come back and check out some of my other offerings. I'm not selling anything (except a few crazy ideas), honest.</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><div class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""><br class=""></span></div></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">Interesting web site. I too have believed that time does not exist under the whole scheme of things. I am a programmer for a company that programs into a fifth dimensional array using processors that did not abide by time which totally blew everything I understood about events and conditionals and made me think quite a bit about how this related to the bigger picture. I am still a novice programmer after four years and have only programmed into the 3rd dimension because I did not see an easy way to program into the 4th and 5th dimension of an array of objects. I have read The End of Time - The next revolution in physics - By Julian Barbour and thought it quite interesting. The funny part about this book is that Julian had Physicist Fotini Markopoulou Kalahari as one of his consults. I wonder what she thought about it. …<font color="#ff2600" class="">Link to pay article removed by Robert Vaessen</font>…</div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">I've done some N dimensional array programming as well. But that was a lonnngg time ago. Way, way, way back in the 80's. The arrays I worked on were weather related. Weather prediction and simulation. As you can imagine there are a hell of a lot of simultaneously interacting variables in any weather related simulation.</span></blockquote></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">I don't know if you are a religious man but I found something interesting last month about time while reading in a scripture. See the end of verse 8 in particular - I included the rest to help show where the author is coming from.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">4 Behold, there is a time appointed that all shall come forth from the dead. Now when this time cometh no one knows; but God knoweth the time which is appointed.<br class=""><br class="">5 Now, whether there shall be one time, or a second time, or a third time, that men shall come forth from the dead, it mattereth not; for God knoweth all these things; and it sufficeth me to know that this is the case that there is a time appointed that all shall rise from the dead.<br class=""><br class="">6 Now there must needs be a space betwixt the time of death and the time of the resurrection.<br class=""><br class="">7 And now I would inquire what becometh of the souls of men from this time of death to the time appointed for the resurrection?<br class=""><br class="">8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.<br class=""><br class="">9 Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead; and there is a space between the time of death and the resurrection. And now, concerning this space of time, what becometh of the souls of men is the thing which I have inquired diligently of the Lord to know; and this is the thing of which I do know.<br class=""><br class="">10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.<br class=""><br class="">Basically I think he is saying that time does not matter to God, so time must not really exist.<br class=""><br class=""></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">O.k. I am religious. I've always believed that regardless of whether time does or does not exist, God is outside of time (or what we perceive as time). God is able to act without regard to time. My friends and I talked a little bit about God in terms of time in our discussion. You can find that discussion here: <</span><a href="http://www.robsworld.org/mhonarcfiles/maillist.html" style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">http://www.robsworld.org/mhonarcfiles/maillist.html</a><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">></span></blockquote><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">I have another quirky theory for you to chew on. I bought a book about 15 years ago called Roget’s Thesaurus with Modern Classification.</div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">I have the same book.</span></blockquote></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">It is quite interesting to see a thesaurus with all the words relating to a classification index and actually makes for a good read - ya I was weird back then also. Anyways this book takes all the basic words that exist and puts them all under six classifications. The six top classes are as follows:<br class="">1. Abstract Relations<br class="">2. Space<br class="">3. Matter<br class="">4. Intelect<br class="">5. Volition<br class="">6. Affections<br class=""><br class="">I was quite excited to learn everything that flowed under these six classes but later believed there should be a simpler class in which those six classifications flow under also. A few years later I fell upon two classes in which all things flow under. These two classes are as follows:<br class="">1. All things that act<br class="">2. All things that are acted upon<br class=""><br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">The more I think about it, the more I think that there is no distinction between the two categories you've proposed. No thing can exist without acting, and no thing can exist without being acted upon.</span></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">Nothing is isolated from interaction with other objects. Even a mote of dust in the deepest region of space is capable of acting upon other things. At some point (Time does not exist) it will come in contact with something. Objects which interact with each other satisfy both categorical descriptions listed above.</span></blockquote></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">So my theory is this - at any given moment one is either acting upon something or being acted upon by something. I think the whole goal of this life is to learn to be the thing that is acting upon the lesser things that are being acted upon. For example I am sitting on my chair right now and my chair is not sitting on me because I can act upon my chair to a certain degree where it is beneficial to me sitting on it.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">The chair is acting upon You! The chair causes your ass flesh (please excuse the crude descriptor) to compress. The compression of the flesh cuts off circulation in some of your arteries. If you sit in the chair long enough, your ass will fall asleep. Given the right circumstances, this restricted blood flow could cause a stroke, which might result in your death. Your chair acts upon you in the same way that you act upon it. All things are truly interconnected.</span></blockquote></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">I would not want to act upon my chair in a way to where it was no longer beneficial to me so I do not throw it from my 7th story window just because I can act upon it in that way. In a way I have made an agreement with my chair that as long as it is comfortable to sit on I will not act upon it in another way. Now if you take the example of the Light Cone that Physicist Fotini Markopoulou Kalamara uses in her article above and take away the time aspects of it (take away the past and future references) and look at it as just a light cone driven by events in space and light then you could refer to the inside of the light cone as things that the event can act upon and the outside portion of the light cone as things that will act upon the event. </div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">I see free will and consciousness as being the underlaying aspects of your 2 categories.</span></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">A. All things that exercise free will.</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">B. All things that are incapable of conscious action.</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote></blockquote></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">As humans we have been programmed to react to certain events of time. We sleep at night, we wake at day, we work from 8 to 5, we eat breakfast in the morning, lunch at noon, and dinner in the evening. I would rather be event driven or need driven. I sleep when I am tired, I eat when I need nourishment, I work when I need money or variety, I learn and think when I do not understand. A need based hierarchy instead of a time based hierarchy.</div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">You describe Anarchy rather well. Complete free will of action, with no regard to the desires/demands of other conscious/free willed things.</span></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">We (as a society) have voluntarily ordered our lives in accordance with a societal hierarchy. It's called government. Society itself could be considered a 'Thing that exercises free will'. These 'Things' need not be living/people. They are complex systems driven by an ordered will or consciousness.</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">But if humans cannot be programmed by time we cannot be controlled. I purposely show up late to work 10 minutes each day as to show my boss that he hired me for the work that I do and not for the time I arrive. Its worked so far and I have not heard any complaints as long as I get the days work done. And I always get the days work done.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">You are a component in society. You have influenced the society/social structure (A 'Thing') in your workplace. This societal 'Thing' is capable of exercising 'Free Will'. It has chosen (with the input of other 'Things' with free will) to alter the acceptable behavior patterns of other things with free will. You have acted upon a societal thing, which has in effect acted upon another thing with free will (your boss). He has had his behavior modified by the work place societal 'thing'. There are some pretty complex 'things' in your office. Your coworkers observe the fact that you are permitted to come in late. It affects there productivity and influences their 'free will'.</span></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">Hopefuly all this makes some sense to you in a way related to the non-existence of time. It all kind of relates I believe on the grander scale of all things when one tries to find the answer to all things in relation. <br class=""><br class="">And in short another thing I have been chewing on and have not made into a big deal yet is the fourth and fifth dimensions. I have been trying to define the fourth dimension in a way where it parallels the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dimensions inclusive. And if that definition works then every dimension thereafter should be relative to this theory but at some time the dimensions parellel back into a first dimension again and the circle starts again but at a progressed level.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">I like to think about the fourth and higher dimensions by visualizing shadows. A shadow cast by a three dimensional object encompasses 1 and 2 dimensional properties. It has height and width but no depth. Taken as a composite, it consists of many 1 dimensional points.</span></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">Two dimensional shadows are created/projected when energetic forces act upon three dimensional objects.</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">Perhaps three dimensional objects are created/projected when energetic forces act upon four dimensional objects. Are we (three dimensional objects) merely shadows of higher dimensional beings? Are our physical bodies shadows of a higher dimensional object? Perhaps our consciousness itself is a higher dimensional object?</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">Where does your free will reside? Can you point to it? What does it look like. We instinctively know/believe that this higher power exists, but we are completely unable to properly define or locate our 'Free will'.</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">Would a two dimensional shadow be able to see the three dimensional object from which it is projected? Answer: No. A two dimensional object has a lower/limited/reduced set of capabilities/properties compared to the three dimensional object from which it is projected.</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">If you look at our consciousness in a similar manner, you might conclude (at least I do), that we are a projection of our 'Free Will'. I don't know where it resides, but I know that it is very powerful. It controls my physical/three-dimensional body. Just as a three dimensional object controls it's two dimensional object. The scaling of control and properties would increase as the dimensions increase. A shadow is relatively simple in comparison to its three dimensional 'parent'.</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">Wow! My head is starting to hurt... This is pretty good stuff. I'll have to save it for later use.</span><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">Anyways I need sleep so I will leave these things for you to try out, and I don't mind if you call me crazy, you would not be the first - just ask my wife. <br class=""><br class="">Thanks for your "time",<br class=""><br class="">Jonny<br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">Same to you Jonny. Thanks for the email. It made me think about higher dimensional 'things', Free will and time.</span></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=""></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class="">- Robert</span></blockquote></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">An interesting exchange where my ideas about higher dimensional objects is expanded to question the origins or source of ‘Free Will’. How do objects affect the dimensional qualities of that object? What affect does a three dimensional object have upon its two and one dimensional components? If we can discuss three dimensional objects in this way, why can’t we speculate that four dimensional objects might have an effect upon three dimensional components of a four dimensional object? Does a three dimensional object exert some amount of control over the two dimensional components that constitute its existence? Does a line segment think that it has free will? Does it suppose that it’s movements are consistent with it’s ‘Free Will’? Where does it’s free will reside?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Are we (as three dimensional objects/things/beings) simply the projected manifestation of a four dimensional being’s free will? Are we (is our consciousness) actually beings of pure thought inhabiting a higher dimensional plane? Perhaps our thoughts/free will is capable of controlling the collapse of a quantum wave/function which materializes/constitutes a reality that we then perceive as reality? Constraining that manifestation of free will with a perceived ‘time’ component in order to separate it from other manifestations of our thoughts.</div><div class=""> </div><div class="">FYI: At times, my discussions drift into the realm of faith; whether that faith is based upon an organized manifestation of beliefs called religion, or simply a spiritual belief in a ‘higher power'. I respect your right to believe in or dispute the existence of a ‘higher power’. I realize that there are things that we (as humans) cannot fully understand, and it is normal to attach belief systems/religion to various aspects of the unknown. Please don’t be offended by my/anyone’s discussions of faith or religion. I have no desire to change this forum into a discussion of religion/religions or religious belief, but I will not omit discussions of ‘belief’ as we discuss something as mysterious as ‘time’.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- Robert</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></body></html>