[notime] South Beach Science 1.13.16 - Interstellar, Vol. 5
Daniel Schroder
dan.schroder at hotmail.com
Tue Feb 16 09:01:57 MST 2016
Here's the last science column I wrote...after recent inspiration from Rob's no time/no motion theory. It doesn't get too much into Rob's theory as I'd covered it in depth previously. More my take on where we're at reality-wise given our latest and greatest intelligence. Will forward five posts later on from 2010 where I commented on/analyzed Seth quotes extensively. Sorry for the heavy volume - ill leave everyone alone after today :).
South Beach Science 1.13.16 - Interstellar, Vol. 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ou8VeQpq0gMoonage DaydreamRIP, David Bowie-------------------------------------------------------Happy New Year!Just kidding. Time doesn't truly exist, so there's no such thing as "new" or a "year." But if there were such a thing, I'd sincerely wish you all a happy one. Instead...Happy temporary physical existence, and best wishes to your higher-dimensional soul! From the bottom of my Earthly heart. Just like in the South Beach Dreams series of 2010 where it took until Vol. 5 before Inception was discussed in earnest, it took us until Vol. 5 of this series to get into Interstellar details. But we're finally here.INTERSTELLAR SPOILERS BELOWI don't know how Christopher Nolan picks movie topics, but he's freaking great at it. As far as the South Beach Science editors are concerned, his last two non-Batman blockbusters have been about the two most important science subjects relating to the true nature of our existence.In 2010's Inception, he deftly takes on the dream world, the closest thing we know to the higher-dimensional realms where our souls may permanently reside.And in 2014's Interstellar, he takes us on an emotional space-time voyage that includes tackling the mother of all poorly-kept existential secrets: that time is not as real as we think it is.Since Nolan is in the business of making films, he's forced to do whatever he's going to do in a visual format. The great news for our purposes here is that when he tackles the most important secret of them all, we get a visual for that too!Visual examples might not seem like a big deal when trying to understand the vast majority of complex topics, science or otherwise, as us modern day humans so darn sharp that we can understand pretty much anything. A few science posts ago, we talked about how space will "bend" itself when necessary, in order to maintain the super-constant speed of light. We visualized space as a slinky toy that could fully collapse or expand, and we grasped this complex idea rather easily. All it takes is the mention of a slinky (and Einstein figuring it out in the first place), and space-time kind of makes sense. When we subsequently progressed further into wacky-land and had the "no-time, no-motion" discussion, visualizing those concepts was noticeably more difficult. We wound up trying to ponder the possibility of a lack of actual motion by imagining a fancy baby nursery nightlight, with the shapes on the mobile being static, and spinning light creating the illusion of moving objects from the mobile, via shadows on the ceiling and walls.The "problem" when we get to these final high-level stages of wacky-land is that even if 1) you completely understood the nightlight mobile gimmick, and 2) you believed that there's no such thing as time (and thus no motion) in the first place, there's still a huge disconnect when trying to wrap your head around how the entire physical universe is just a kaleidoscope fart of a static mass projection, perpetrated by higher dimensional forces!How the heck are we supposed to start mentally bridging that disconnect gap, when the magical realms known as the higher dimensions are so utterly unknown and unreachable?The short answer is that we can't. The traits, entities and whims of dimensions five through eleven might visit us, in the form of ghosts, ESP, UFOs, God, dreams, and much more than it seems. But we don't get to visit or truly understand any of those dimensions until we die, and nothing is going to change that no matter how much we futily try.We simply can't truly understand these higher dimensions, the place(s) where our soul already knows full well that our existence is timeless. But I didn't say that we can't have a little taste -- that we can't fabricate a similar sensation to what we will eventually be experiencing and feeling -- from right here on 2016's iteration of Earth.So while we'll still futily attempt the understanding part as we always do, the most valuable takeaway below will likely be the this is what it's going to feel like part. It's not going to be exact, and it might not be a very accurate portrayal of a true timeless existence at all. But it's what we can muster, with the odds stacked so heavily against us here in three-dimensional existentially-doofus land.By talking it out, with a new and awesome visual backdrop and years of paranormal dabbling in our holster, we'll try to briefly step outside of our Earthly selves and comprehend the feeling of what it's like to exist without time. So with a giant hat tip to Christopher Nolan and the talented physicists quoted below, welcome to an exclusive sneak preview of the no-time afterlife!Friends, it's time to visit the other side of the bookshelf. Interstellar, Vol. 5 - The TesseractLet's begin with Interstellar tesseract thoughts from everyone's favorite uber-nerd, Neil deGrasse Tyson:http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/11/neil-degrasse-tyson-breaks-down-interstellar-black-holes-time-dilations-and-massive-waves.htmlHow about the way the film treated the fifth dimension?Oh, it was awesome. If you go to a higher dimension than our own, it’s entirely allowed to suppose that you have access to your time dimension. Right now, we have access to our three spatial dimensions, so you can occupy any position within your three-dimensional spatial coordinates at any time. In time, we are prisoners of the present forever prevented from accessing our past, or our future. If you go to a higher dimension, its not unrealistic to imagine that your entire timeline would be laid out in front of you no differently than the way our space dimensions are laid out in front of us now, so that you can occupy any point from birth to death in your own timeline. In the tesseract as they call it, which is just a higher-dimensional space system—the tesseract actually has a very specific meaning mathematically, but ever since the Thor films and The Avengers series, “tesseract” is any access you’re going to have to a higher dimension and I’m fine with that. It’s a fresh word to most members of the public, so why not give it a fresh definition? So, he has access to his entire timeline, and it was up to the visualizers to visualize it in some way that it might be. Every direction he looked, time continued infinitely in that direction—and every direction. Every place he floated was that corridor.aaaa"...it was up to the visualizers to visualize it in some way that it might be."And visualize they and us movie viewers did! I can't properly explain something like the tesseract using words alone. So before we get into those heavy words, here are some more tesseract pictures so that you can remember exactly what it looked like:Note: The rest of today's excerpts that aren't individually cited come from the following link and from the genius brain of resident Interstellar physicist Kip Thorne. https://www.quora.com/Spoiler-Alert-In-Interstellar-Cooper-sends-the-morse-code-message-through-the-watch-when-Murph-is-10-years-old-Why-is-the-watch-still-ticking-out-the-message-when-she-visits-23-years-later ...How, in this interpretation, do I explain Amelia Brand’s description of time as seen by beings in the bulk? “To Them time may be just another physical dimension. To Them the past might be a canyon They can climb into and the future a mountain They can climb up.”...From a higher dimension than time (we'll consider time to be the fourth dimension today, for simplicity), time just becomes a fourth physical-adjace dimension. You can view or know (even if you cannot "travel" to, as we do in the third dimension) any point in "time." It's all just there, because time is a fake constraint to begin with. Just like if we were shadows on a sidewalk mingling with each other, we'd have no way to explain or communicate what experiencing the third dimension feels like. The dimension that's one number higher than your cognitive capability's maximum is always the master of you. That one-dimension-up-from-your-maximum is the "thing" that you can't affect or touch in any way...the three dimensional child that could stomp on you, the shadow, or the umbrella that could block you from appearing on the sands of beaches. This is very similar to how "time" is the only thing that has the power to say that our physical three-dimensional lives are "over." Your body's heart may have stopped beating and your brain may have stopped functioning and your family members may consider you to have passed away, but all of that is only true on our shared, narrow one-way path or branch of sequential experiences. In reality, you are still blowing out the candles at your fifth birthday party right now, just as much as you were the one time you thought you were.Since there's no such thing as time, there's no such thing as a physical Earthly death with any finality either, when you are contemplating it from the perspective of the fifth-plus dimension. Thus, it makes complete sense that our eternal souls reside in these higher dimensions, to be referred to henceforth as the "bulk." So that we can keep pace with Kip Thorne (and Stephen Hawking) today, it's probably easiest for us regular folk to think of the "bulk" as something approaching 1) complete reality, or 2) what we'll eventually know as the afterlife, or 3) the full and true meaning of our existence. The "bulk" might not technically encompass all of the unknown higher dimensions, but let's simplify things and pretend that it does for our purposes.So then this bulk includes dimensions that are part of string theory and M-theory (10-dimensional string theory plus 11th and final slightly-offset membrane dimension) that we don't understand, other than to know that our simpleton existence is taking place within a razor-thin membrane of a physical universe that will be referred to henceforth as the "brane." Back to Kip:Communicating Rule Sets to a Movie Audience:Before Christopher Nolan became Interstellar’s director and rewrote the screenplay, his brother Jonah taught me about rule sets.To maintain the desired level of suspense in a science-fiction movie, Jonah said, the audience must be told the rules of the game, the movie’s “rule set.” What do the laws of physics and the technology of the era allow, and what do they forbid? If the rules are not clear, then many in the audience will expect some miraculous event to save the heroine, out of the blue, and tension will fail to mount as it should.Of course you can’t say to the audience, “Here is the rule set for this movie: . . .” It must be communicated in a subtle and natural way. And Chris is a master of this. He communicates his rule sets though the characters’ dialog. Next time you watch Interstellar (how can you resist watching it again?), look within the film for his tell-tale bits of rule-set dialog.Christopher Nolan’s Rule Set for Time Travel[S] (S Means Status Of Science is Speculation, As Opposed to Truth And Educated Guess)It turns out (see below) that backward time travel is governed by the laws of quantum gravity, which are terra almost incognita,[an almost unknown land] so we physicists don’t know for sure what is allowed and what not.Chris made two specific choices for allowed and forbidden time travel—his rule set:Rule 1: Physical objects and fields with three space dimensions, such as people and light rays, cannot travel backward in time from one location in our brane[ our universe is a membrane (physicists call it a “brane”) residing in a higher-dimensional “hyperspace” to which physicists give the name “bulk”;] Fig. 3.5. Our universe, in the vicinity of the Sun, depicted as a two-dimensional surface or brane, residing in a three-dimensional bulk. In reality, our brane has three space dimensions and the bulk has four.to another, nor can information that they carry. The physical laws or the actual warping of spacetime prevent it. This is true whether the objects are forever lodged in our brane or journey through the bulk in a three-dimensional face of a tesseract, from one point in our brane to another. So, in particular, Cooper can never travel to his own past.Rule 2: Gravitational forces can carry messages into our brane’s past.In the movie, rule 1 generates mounting tension. Murph grows older and older as Cooper lingers near Gargantua. With no possibility to travel backward in time there’s a growing danger he’ll never return to her.Rule 2 gives Cooper hope. Hope that he can use gravity to transmit the quantum data backward in time to young Murph, so she can solve the Professor’s equation and figure out how to lift humanity off Earth.Our physical lives as we know them reside here in the three dimensional brane where we think that time and motion exist and we think that ESP and ghosts and spirits might not. But in reality, as would be laughed about during a hypothetical "hyperspace town hall" discussion in the bulk, the reason we think as much is because of the severely limited capability of our brains. Our souls know what's going on from the bulk, but have no way of communicating everything to our human brains in a such a way that we can understand it. The main thing that we do know our collective souls have been able to pull off from the bulk has been an extreme fine-tuning of something projected from the great beyond, which caused the big bang-type event 13.8 billion years ago (the birth of our brane). And with that event came the capacity for further tuning, and hydrogen, and helium, and carbon, and stars, and planets, and oceans, and mountains and conscious life. So now we're here. So far removed from the full reality that burped out our brane to begin with, that the following truths seem weird to us, and you could even be thought of as a quack for believing them: Like a finely-tuned and vibrating string on a guitar, the seemingly solid wall in front of your desk is actually made up of tiny vibrating strings within atoms and molecules. If you were as enlightened as your soul in the bulk, you could slowly stick your hand right through that wall. Just like you could if you really wanted to and imagined to do in a dream. Because the wall is not truly-truly there, and it's only the result of your narrow-minded brain rearranging those molecules by being tuned into a very specific note, for a shared and common purpose of a physical existence that we're a solid 13.8 billion years into. The wall didn't need to be there while you were dreaming, while your soul was trying to visit the bulk via dreamland. So, for your purposes in the bulk-adjace dreamworld, it wasn't there. Much the same, neither was "time." For years now here at South Beach, we've been running circles around "time" and poking fun at it from all angles. It's not linear. It's not what you think. It's a figment of our Earthly brain (brane!) imaginations.What we don't often do is get into the weeds on time-travel, but the following from Kip Thorne is quite interesting and worth the long delve. We usually think of time travel in the context of how someone went back in time and got caught using a cell phone on film in a Charlie Chaplin picture. Or how awesome the adventures of Martin Seamus "Marty" McFly and Emmett Lathrop "Doc" Brown were. But now we're trying to imagine ourselves here in the higher-dimensional tesseract, where time doesn't constrain us. We're essentially in Rob's (no-time/no-motion theory author) "probability matrix." All bets are off. Everything is at our fingertips. We can "travel" through time in the sense that we can quickly access any desired portion of time as previously recorded in the brane. But can we only access/view that "time," or can we communicate with it?What if it were crucial that we change the course of events at the "Enchantment Under The Sea" dance? We're in the freaking fifth-dimension tesseract and we don't even have as much power to affect the course of history in the brane as Marty and Doc did? Bollocks!Interstellar not only gives us the ultimate profoundly epic ending, it does so using scientifically plausible methods. Stephen Hawking may disagree, but nobody can prove it either way. Please remember our old two-item list of things that are definitely real - gravity and light. Please enjoy the starring roles of gravity and light in the physics lesson below. Comprehensible time travel talk doesn't get any higher-level than this. Interstellar chatter doesn't get any hipper or nerdier than this. Here we go. I call shotgun in the DeLorean....How do these rules play out in Interstellar?Messaging Murph (Speculation)When falling into and through the tesseract, Cooper truly does travel backward relative to our brane’s time, from the era when Murph is an old woman to the era when she is ten years old. He does this in the sense that, looking at Murph in the tesseract bedrooms, he sees her ten years old. And he can move forward and backward relative to our brane’s time (the bedroom’s time) in the sense that he can look at Murph at various bedroom times by choosing which bedroom to look into. This does not violate rule 1 because Cooper has not reentered our brane. He remains outside it, in the tesseract’s three-dimensional channel, and he looks into Murph’s bedroom via light that travels forward in time from Murph to him.But just as Cooper can’t reenter our brane in Murph’s ten-year-old era, so he can’t send light to her. That would violate rule 1. The light could bring her information from Cooper’s personal past, which is her future; information from the era when she is an old woman—backward-in-time information from one location in our brane to another. So there must be some sort of one-way spacetime barrier between ten-year-old Murph in her bedroom and Cooper in the tesseract, rather like a one-way mirror or a black-hole horizon. Light can travel from Murph to Cooper but not from Cooper to Murph.In my scientist’s interpretation of Interstellar, the one-way barrier has a simple origin: Cooper, in the tesseract, is always in ten-year-old Murph’s future. Light can travel toward the future from Murph to him. It can’t travel to the past from him to Murph.The coolest part of the above is the notion of light traveling upwards in dimensions. While trying to visualize our no-time/no-motion existence, it was easy to think of the Sun and other light-emitting stars as portals between us and higher dimensions (the bulk). That life- and sight-enabling light was somehow being shone down on us from the heavens above. From a higher dimension to a lower dimension.We know that light can only move "forward" during intra-dimensional travel within our third dimension, just like time, which also cannot move backwards. But that the same light is viewable (not just knowable) from the bulk is a beautiful concept. The more that you think about this stuff, the more that light starts to equal life. Your first game of Hungry Hungry Hippos in your childhood bedroom was essentially a forwards projection of light, and like every other instant you've ever experienced, it's card-cataloged for instant "viewing" on demand in the bulk. Whether that means viewing optically, or comprehending in a way we don't yet fully grasp.Let's now substitute "forwards projection of light" or "forwards in time" with "extrusion"......However, gravity can surmount that one-way barrier, Cooper discovers. Gravitational signals can go backward in time from Cooper to Murph. We first see this when Cooper desperately pushes books out of Murph’s bookcase. Figure 30.1 shows a still from that scene of the movie.Fig. 30.1. Cooper pushes on the world tube of a book with his right handTo explain this still, I must tell you a bit more about the bedroom extrusions, as Chris and Paul Franklin explained them to me.[Paul Franklin :Visual Effect Guy] Let’s focus on the front blue extrusion in Figure 30.2 with extraneous stuff removed. Recall that this extrusion is a set of vertical cross sections through Murph’s bedroom, traveling forward in bedroom time along the blue direction (rightward).Fig. 30.2. The world tube of a book, within an extrusion of Murph’s bedroom. The book and its world tube are drawn much larger than they actually are.Each object in the bedroom, for example each book, contributes to the bedroom’s extrusion. In fact, the book has its own extrusion, which travels forward in time along the blue-arrow direction as part of the bedroom’s larger extrusion. We physicists call a variant of this extrusion the book’s “world tube.” And we call the extrusion of each particle of matter in the book the particle’s “world line.” So the book’s world tube is a bundle of world lines of all the particles that make up the book. Chris and Paul also use this language. The thin lines that you see in the movie, running along the extrusions, are world lines of particles of matter in Murph’s bedroom.In Figure 30.1, Cooper slams his fist on the book’s world tube over and over again, creating a gravitational force, which travels backward in time to the moment in Murph’s bedroom that he is seeing and then pushes on the book’s world tube. The book’s tube responds by moving. The tube’s motion appears to Cooper as an instantaneous response to his pushes. And the motion becomes a wave traveling leftward down the tube (Figure 30.2).When the motion gets strong enough, the book falls out of the bookcase.By the time Cooper has received the quantum data from TARS, he has mastered this means of communication. In the movie we see him pushing with his finger on the world tube of a watch’s second hand. His pushes produce a backward-in-time gravitational force, which makes the second-hand twitch in a Morse-encoded pattern that carries the quantum data. The tesseract stores the twitching pattern in the bulk so it repeats over and over again. When forty-year-old Murph returns to her bedroom three decades later, she finds the second hand still twitching, repeating over and over again the encoded quantum data that Cooper has struggled so hard to send her.How does the backward-in-time gravitational force work? I’ll describe my physicist’s interpretation after I tell you what I know, or think I know, about backward time travel.This world tube/world line stuff is awesome! As is the cinematic decision to give gravity the secret power to communicate messages from the bulk to the three-dimensional past. I mean...if anything ever could, gravity makes a lot of sense. Remember what the only four things in existence were at the very very beginning of the big bang/inflation: strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, electromagnetism and GRAVITY. Even real-life ghosts seem to have a proclivity for swiping things off of tables and letting gravity take care of the rest.Once more...The tube’s motion appears to Cooper as an instantaneous response to his pushes. From our perspective here in the brane in 2016, it is a glorious idea that someone or something from the bulk would eventually be able to communicate with us directly (rather than how Seth possessed Jane Roberts, or Edgar Cayce was infiltrated by something). But it's doubly glorious to think that the communication would come in the form of gravity, and that it would be more instantaneous than the incredible speeds at which thousands of humans have seen UFOs zoom away and disappear. Cooper pushes on the book, and he sees the results in Murph's bedroom in real time -- rendering time completely fake, from the perspective of gravity. I'm sorry, but that is just legit boss.Almost as boss as Carl Sagan rocking a turtleneck...We're never going to finish this if I keep commenting every few paragraphs, so let's just let Kip Thorne do his thing:Time Travel Without a Bulk: What I Think I Know [Status Of Science is Educated Guess]In 1987, triggered by Carl Sagan (Chapter 14), I realized something amazing about wormholes. If wormholes are allowed by the laws of physics, then Einstein’s relativistic laws permit transforming them into time machines. The nicest example of this was discovered a year later by my close friend Igor Novikov, in Moscow, Russia. Igor’s example, Figure 30.3, shows that a wormhole’s transformation into a time machine might occur naturally, without the aid of intelligent beings.In Figure 30.3, the bottom mouth of the wormhole is in orbit around a black hole and the upper mouth is far from the black hole. Because of the black hole’s intense gravitational pull, Einstein’s law of time warps dictates that time flow more slowly at the lower mouth than at the upper mouth. More slowly, that is, when compared along the path of gravity’s intense pull: the dashed purple path through the external universe. I presume, for concreteness, that this has produced a one-hour lag so when compared through the external universe, the bottom clock shown in the figure is one hour behind the top clock. And this time lag is continuing to grow.Fig. 30.3. Wormhole as a time machine.Since there is only a tiny gravitational pull inside the wormhole, Einstein’s law of time warps dictates that, as seen through the wormhole, time flows at essentially the same rate in the upper mouth as in the lower mouth. So there is no time lag when the clocks are compared through the wormhole. They are synchronized.Suppose, further, for concreteness, that the distance from mouth to mouth in the external universe is short enough that you can traverse it in five minutes as measured by the clocks, and you can travel through the wormhole in one minute. Then this wormhole has already become a time machine. You leave the upper mouth at time 2:00 as measured by the clock there, and travel through the external universe to the lower mouth, arriving at 2:05 upper clock time and 1:05 lower clock time. You then make a one-minute trip upward through the wormhole, from lower mouth to upper. Since the clocks are synchronized through the wormhole, you reach the upper mouth at time 1:06 as seen by both clocks. You arrive back at your starting point fifty-four minutes before your 2:00 departure, and you meet your younger self.Some days earlier, when the time difference was much less, the wormhole was not yet a time machine. It became a time machine at the first moment when something, moving at the highest possible speed, the speed of light, was able to travel along your route and arrive back at the top mouth at the very moment it started out.If that something is a particle of light (a photon), for example, then we began with one photon and we now have two, at the starting place and time. After those two make the trip, we have four at that same place and time, then eight, then sixteen, . . . ! There is a growing crescendo of energy coursing through the wormhole, perhaps enough that the energy’s gravity destroys the wormhole at the very moment it is becoming a time machine.It would seem easy to prevent this. Just shield the wormhole from photons. However, there is something you cannot shield out: quantum fluctuations of light with ultrahigh frequency—fluctuations that inevitably exist, according to the quantum laws. In 1990, Sung-Won Kim (a postdoctoral student in my research group) and I used the quantum laws to compute the fate of such fluctuations. We found a growing explosion (Figure 30.4). We thought, at first, that the explosion was too weak to destroy the wormhole. The wormhole would become a time machine despite the explosion, we thought. Stephen Hawking convinced us otherwise. The fate of the explosion is controlled by the laws of quantum gravity, he convinced us. Only when those laws are well understood will we know for sure whether backward time travel is possible.Stephen, however, was so convinced that the ultimate answer will be no time machines, that he codified this in what he calls his “chronology protection conjecture”: The laws of physics will always prevent backward time travel, thereby “keeping the universe safe for historians.”Fig. 30.4. Quantum fluctuations of light, traveling along the red path, build up into a crescendo explosion at the moment the wormhole is becoming a time machine.Many researchers have struggled, over the past twenty years, to prove or disprove Hawking’s chronology protection conjecture. The bottom line today, I think, remains the same as in the early 1990s, when he and I were debating the issue: Only the laws of quantum gravity know for sure.Time Travel with a Bulk [S]All this research and conclusions—educated guesses—are based on the laws of physics that prevail if there is no bulk with a large fifth dimension. What happens to time travel if a large bulk does exist, as in Interstellar?We physicists find Einstein’s relativistic laws so compelling that we suspect they hold in the bulk as well as in our brane. So Lisa Randall, Raman Sundrum, and others have extended his laws into the five-dimensional bulk by one simple step: adding a new dimension to space. That extension proceeds mathematically in a straightforward and beautiful manner, which makes us physicists think we may be on the right track. In my interpretation of the movie, Professor Brand uses this extension as a foundation for his equation and for his struggle to understand gravitational anomalies. If this speculative extension is correct, then time behaves fundamentally the same in the bulk as in our brane. In particular, objects and signals in the bulk, like those in our brane, can only move in one direction through locally measured time (local bulk time): toward the future. They cannot move backward, locally. If backward time travel is possible in the bulk, it can be achieved only by journeying out through the bulk’s space and returning before the journey started while always moving forward in local bulk time. This is a bulk analog of the round trip in Figure 30.3.Messaging Murph: My Physicist’s Interpretation [S]This description of time underlies my physicist’s interpretation of Cooper’s messaging Murph.Recall that the tesseract is an object whose faces have three space dimensions and interior has four. The interior is part of the bulk. Everything we see in the movie’s tesseract scenes lies in the faces: Cooper, Murph, Murph’s bedroom, the bedroom’s extrusions, the world tubes of the book and watch—all lie in tesseract faces. We never see the tesseract’s bulk interior. We can’t see it, since light can’t travel through four space dimensions, only three. However, gravity can do so.In my interpretation, when Cooper sees a book in Murph’s bedroom, he does so via a light ray that travels in faces of the tesseract (for example, the red dashed ray in Figure 30.5). And when he pushes on a book’s world tube, or on the world tube of the watch’s second hand, he generates a gravitational signal (a gravitational wave in the bulk) that spirals into and through the tesseract’s bulk interior, along the violet curve in Figure 30.5. The signal travels forward in local, bulk time, but backward in bedroom time, arriving before it started out. It is this gravitational signal that pushes the book out of the bookcase and twitches the watch’s second hand.Fig. 30.5. A Cooper icon sees a book via the red dashed light ray and exerts a force on the book via a gravitational signal that spirals along the violet curve. I’ve suppressed one of our brane’s spatial dimensions.This is rather like one of my favorite Escher drawings, Waterfall (Figure 30.6). Downward in the drawing is analogous to the forward flow of bedroom time, and the flowing water is analogous to the forward flow of local time. A leaf on the water is carried forward with the water just like signals in the bulk are carried forward in local time.Waterfall. [Drawing by M. C. Escher.]When carried by water down the waterfall, the leaf is like the light ray from the book to Cooper: It travels not only forward in local time but also downward (forward in bedroom time). When carried along the aqueduct, the leaf is like the gravitational signal from Cooper to the book: it travels forward in local time but upward (so backward in bedroom time).How, in this interpretation, do I explain Amelia Brand’s description of time as seen by beings in the bulk? “To Them time may be just another physical dimension. To Them the past might be a canyon They can climb into and the future a mountain They can climb up.”Einstein’s laws, extended into the bulk, tell us that local bulk time can’t behave this way. Nothing in the bulk can go backward in local bulk time. However, when looking into our brane from the bulk, Cooper and bulk beings can and do see our brane’s time (bedroom time) behave like Brand says. As seen from the bulk, “our brane’s time can look like just another physical dimension,” to paraphrase Brand. “Our brane’s past looks like a canyon that Cooper can climb into [by traveling down the tesseract’s diagonal channel], and our brane’s future looks like a mountain that Cooper can climb up [by traveling up the tesseract’s diagonal channel; Figure 29.14].”Fig. 29.14. This is what Cooper sees as he travels rapidly into the future of Murph-bedroom time by soaring along a diagonal channel through the tesseract complex. The diagonal channel is in the picture’s upper center.This is my physicist’s interpretation of Brand’s words. And Chris interprets them similarly.Touching Brand Across the Fifth Dimension [S]In Interstellar, with the quantum data safely in Murph’s hands, Cooper’s mission is finished. The tesseract, carrying him through the bulk, begins to close.As it is closing, he sees the wormhole. And within the wormhole, he sees the Endurance on its maiden voyage to Gargantua. As he sweeps past the Endurance, he reaches out and gravitationally touches Brand across the fifth dimension. She thinks she has been touched by a bulk being. She has . ..by a being riding through the bulk in a rapidly closing tesseract. By an exhausted, older Cooper.End.Alrighty, then! Let's try to wrap this up.Physicists aren't sure whether or not time travel is possible within the brane, because the answer is at the mercy of the laws of quantum gravity, which we don't understand at all yet.The possibility of communication from the fifth dimension to the third can best be contemplated by adding a bridge of an extra physical dimension (a substitute fourth, instead of time). If you 1) add that dimension and 2) if Einstein's relativistic laws hold true in the fifth-plus dimensional bulk, then inhabitants of the bulk would experience their own local, forward-only moving time, even as they had access to the complete library of our brane's history of time.If those two things are true, that's about our best case scenario for what people think of as "heaven." A comfortable, quasi-all-knowing place, with a forward-moving feel.I tend to think that Einstein's luck will have run out once the secrets of the bulk are revealed in the afterlife. That the true reality will be an existence where we look back on the concept of time in the brane and think of it as a specific rule of a particular game. The game being our waking, physical lives on Earth. Now either way, no one (not Einstein, Hawking or Thorne) is saying that from higher dimensions, they don't think you'll be able to view/comprehend the entire world tubes of books and children, or the world lines of the atoms and molecules that make up those books and children. This reminds me of a very similar point we've brought up in years past, inspired by the one soul that we know of that has communicated clearly from the bulk, Seth. That your future vacation house in the Caribbean -- the one that you will decide to have built from scratch after you hit it rich -- has already been built. That you could build a baby crib in five years, and the exact wood molecules that will be used in the construction of that crib are already destined to become part of your crib. Whether they are sitting in a lumberyard right now, or are inside of trees that have yet to be cut down on some boring reality television show about logging that's full of feigned drama, those wood molecules have a "world line" that's knowable from the bulk. I know the above is hard to fathom from here in the brane, with free will and all. But today is all about imagining ourselves in Interstellar's tesseract!To that end, let's take a fresh gander at Rob's "No-Time, No-Motion" Theory from Vol. 3.:All possible positions of a physical body/object simultaneously exist in a dimension/universe that is slightly offset from the physical universe/reality which 'we' currently inhabit. There is no physical movement of objects/bodies in this universe. All things/states of mater/energy simultaneously coexist. The beginning and the end are static unmoving/unchanging events. It is the processing (in a linear, continuous, contiguous fashion) of these differing static nodes that creates the illusion of motion, and thus the illusion of 'time' as changes appear to occur. In my model of 'no time', there are no physical changes, thus 'No motion'.As I hinted at during today's introduction/setup, let's now stop trying to fully understand this stuff. Let's finish by attempting to contemplate and get a tiny taste of what it's going to be like and feel like when we get to experience the bulk in the afterlife. When we experience the REAL TESSERACT:--We won't have a "body" per-se, but we'll be conscious.--There is no physical movement of objects/bodies in this universe. --All things/states of mater/energy simultaneously coexist.--The beginning and the end are static unmoving/unchanging events.--The presence of light versus darkness won't be a concern, as there will be no need to "see" anything since everything will already be understood, and more exciting that watching television in a lit room.--There is an "everything canvas" that you could think of a brand new and all-consuming Etch-A-Sketch. You get to view/comprehend your Earthly life "world tube/line" at any point from start to finish, like an etched-out line with a finite beginning and end. You know that the etched line isn't really there, and that nothing really "moved" or "changed" on the everything canvas. But like an ant that burrowed a tunnel in an ant farm, you know that you "experienced" those world tube tunnels and your books experienced their clumps of world lines. --You have also already experienced many other paths, possibly at slightly different dimensional-angles or offset-universes, that your Earthly brain is unaware of. --You are in a giant, multiverse-complex probability matrix, where creative boredom for your soul's consciousness is an impossibility. You are wholly content. You are in what humans think of as the dream world, but will full creative control, and the non-physical companionship of fellow souls.--You view the shared intelligent-physical-life experiment and the existence of the universe from a place of love. But now you are in your real home. (back to the brane)I don't know if Cooper "dies" at the end of the film or not. And I don't think it matters much. Interstellar is about themes as powerful as love and abandonment and anger and hope. And those things are way more powerful than anything physical in this dimension.Heaven, Hell, Bane, Bulk. Call it what you want. Eventually, we're all going home.And not to be alone.*South Beach Completely Obsessed With NFL Playoffs Here In The Brane Peace*------------------------------------------------------------------------------More bad news for non-believers...the different paths that your life almost took did all "happen" after all:http://listverse.com/2015/01/10/10-amazing-stories-of-people-who-woke-up-from-comas/Growing up in Australia, Ben McMahon learned French and Mandarin, but was never fluent in them. In 2012, he was in a car accident which left him comatose for a week. Doctors said he would be lucky if he survived. He beat the odds and woke up but, oddly, he only spoke Mandarin and couldn’t speak English. He could also write in Mandarin.Eventually, Ben regained the ability to speak English, but didn’t lose the ability to speak Mandarin. As of September 2014, Ben is living in Shanghai where he attends school, but also gives walking tours of the city. In fact, his Mandarin is so good it impresses native speakers, and he is the host of a TV show in Shanghai.While that almost sounds too wild to believe, it’s actually happened to other people. Thirteen-year-old Sandra Ralic, from Kinn, Croatia, was studying German and she had just started reading German books and watching German television shows, but wasn’t fluent in it. Then, she was in a coma for 24 hours. When she came out of the coma, she could only speak in German, and couldn’t speak in her native tongue.Finally, there is the amazing story of American Michael Boatwright. He woke up in a hospital bed in California speaking Swedish and claiming his name was actually Johan Ek.Boatwright had lived in Sweden and had a Swedish girlfriend in the past. While many urban legends discuss people waking up from a coma speaking a brand new language, that is not a medically recognized phenomenon. However, people can lose the ability to speak their primary language while retaining access to a secondary language that they already know to some degree. It’s speculated that they seem more fluent in the second language afterward because they no longer default to the first one.
From: accessweb_ltd at hotmail.com
To: akinetochronism at robsworld.org
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 09:43:23 +0000
Subject: [notime] Seth
> From: akinetochronism-request at robsworld.org
> Subject: akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 7
> To: akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 03:39:44 -0600
>
> Send akinetochronism mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5 (Andy W)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 09:39:28 +0000
> From: Andy W <accessweb_ltd at hotmail.com>
> To: "akinetochronism at robsworld.org" <akinetochronism at robsworld.org>
> Subject: Re: [notime] akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5
> Message-ID: <DUB116-W108F89A82863E6DB5862E6D98AC0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Maybe a few typos? from The eternal validity of the soul
>
> Excerpt from Question & answer session with Seth
>
> Art O is this noninterval a moment of this existence?
>
> Seth it is indeed in this existence ;& also these non-intervals are moments in other dimensions of reality
>
> Jim H Might this be compared to a rotating light in a lighthouse?
>
> Seth It may if you like the analogy
>
> Art O The analogy I get is of an electromagnetic wave, a carrier wave & it?s rectified The intervals are the positive pulses & the non-intervals are the negative pulses
>
> Seth That is why I am talking to you
>
> Art O Are there more than 2 pulses?
>
> Three are & the whole self is aware of these realities with no unkindness ment, you all know your selves & your weaknesses & failiures,so why should you suppose that the self you know is the only self that you are? Surely it has occurred to you that you have abilities you are not using, that other realities connected with your innermost existence are not being expressed in the existence you know of.
>
> Seth To Art O I want you to think of the implications of what I have said concerning non-intervals
>
> Jim H Would a non-interval be a positive interval to another aspect of our existence
>
> Seth It is, & they would not perceive your existence here, for to them it would be a non-interval
>
> Jim H Could this be the key to the simultaneous existence of all of our lives & the key to NON TIME
>
> Seth Yes indeed & some evening will tell you that you should change your conception of the word ?lives? and think of what you mean when you use the word lives & see how limited the term is.
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: akinetochronism-request at robsworld.org
> > Subject: akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5
> > To: akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 18:47:05 -0600
> >
> > Send akinetochronism mailing list submissions to
> > akinetochronism at robsworld.org
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> > http://robsworld.org/mailman/listinfo/akinetochronism_robsworld.org
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > akinetochronism-request at robsworld.org
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> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of akinetochronism digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Hi Sue (Sue S.)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:46:11 -0800
> > From: "Sue S." <sdsup at yahoo.com>
> > To: No such thing as time or motion discussions
> > <akinetochronism at robsworld.org>
> > Subject: Re: [notime] Hi Sue
> > Message-ID: <66q869ed7pv4cipq3098exig.1455497171273 at email.android.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Thanks, Dan and Andy,
> > I will read the book, but I'd also love to hear how the Seth book applies to all this in your opinions.
> > I am looking for info on a certain feeling about time that makes it not only not a thing, but also just a path through all possible futures which all already exist.
> > Sue
> >
> > On February 14, 2016, at 4:32 PM, "dan. schroder" <dan.schroder at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hey everyone, ?I'm the guy that revived Rob's public awesomeness...will forward some good summaries in the next couple of days including my five part series on Seth and dreams from 2010 and how it all ties into the ultimate truths we are so close to comprehending...Seth could not be more relevant.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original message --------
> > From: Andy W <accessweb_ltd at hotmail.com>
> > Date:02/14/2016 4:58 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > To: akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> > Cc:
> > Subject: Re: [notime] Hi Sue
> >
> > <!-- .x_hmmessage {margin:0px; padding:0px} body.x_hmmessage {font-size:12pt; font-family:Calibri} -->
> >
> > Hi Sue,
> >
> > Yep sounds like something from the Seth material channelling (Jane Roerts) but I've read most of the books & don't remember that analogy. Seth talks of Multi dimensional universe & probabilities & says that time is a human construct that fits into this camouflaged physical reality..Think the fact that Seth is a entity no longer focused in physial life & also the channeling nature of the material puts alot of people off "maybe" from reading it, but personally although some of the concepts are difficult to understand It's a book that's changed my life & confirms what I all ready new from personal experience ie OBE's etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: akinetochronism-request at robsworld.org
> > > Subject: akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 2
> > > To: akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> > > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 15:13:38 -0600
> > >
> > > Send akinetochronism mailing list submissions to
> > > akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > http://robsworld.org/mailman/listinfo/akinetochronism_robsworld.org
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > akinetochronism-request at robsworld.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > akinetochronism-owner at robsworld.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of akinetochronism digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1 (Andy W)
> > > 2. Re: reply to Andy W about Seth Speaks (Susan S.)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 20:13:53 +0000
> > > From: Andy W <accessweb_ltd at hotmail.com>
> > > To: "akinetochronism at robsworld.org" <akinetochronism at robsworld.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [notime] akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1
> > > Message-ID: <DUB116-W1674E51780E29EE5B3F57D98AB0 at phx.gbl>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Not really sure how this forum works but I would definitely recommend Reading Seth speaks the validity of the soul which in my opinion is the definitive work on this subject & many others..
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: akinetochronism-request at robsworld.org
> > > > Subject: akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1
> > > > To: akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> > > > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 12:00:02 -0600
> > > >
> > > > Send akinetochronism mailing list submissions to
> > > > akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> > > >
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > > http://robsworld.org/mailman/listinfo/akinetochronism_robsworld.org
> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > > akinetochronism-request at robsworld.org
> > > >
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > > akinetochronism-owner at robsworld.org
> > > >
> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > > than "Re: Contents of akinetochronism digest..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Time, like gravity is an unseen force acting upon the
> > > > physical world (Robert Vaessen)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 16:19:24 -0700
> > > > From: Robert Vaessen <notime at robsworld.org>
> > > > To: No such thing as time or motion discussions
> > > > <akinetochronism at robsworld.org>
> > > > Subject: [notime] Time, like gravity is an unseen force acting upon
> > > > the physical world
> > > > Message-ID: <07849408-73D9-4849-8735-C65F46499527 at robsworld.org>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > > >
> > > > All -
> > > >
> > > > As mentioned in previous posts to this list - I?m planning/am re-posting some of my previous ?No Time? conversations. Conversations with correspondents who wrote (over the years) in regards to the ?No Time? treatise/ideas I wrote/posted at: <http://www.robsworld.org/notime.html <http://www.robsworld.org/notime.html>>;. I will be re-posting, dissecting, discussing that correspondence here; on the ?Akinetochronism? forum/mailing list. Here (see below) is another early discussion I engaged in with a correspondent. Please feel free to agree, disagree, or discuss these ?No Time / No Motion? ideas. In order to post/respond to the list all you have to do is draft and email and address it to: <akinetochronism at robsworld.org <mailto:akinetochronism at robsworld.org>>
> > > >
> > > > In this particular discussion/conversation I received an email from ?Jason K? - In that email he commented on something (gravity) that people sometimes use when they try to refute the non-existence of time.
> > > >
> > > > Note that some ?redaction? has been applied to protect Hedley's identity and occasionally for brevity?s sake. In the case of email addresses or full names, I simply omit the full email address or name.
> > > >
> > > > - Robert
> > > >
> > > > In this reposting, I have added my responses to the original post from Jason K. Jason's original email arrived on the 17th of Nov, 2004. My reply was sent on the 5th of Dec, 2004. Hedley's comments are in dark blue (with a single indent/quotation level). My comments are in light blue (with a double indent/quotation level).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 17, 2004, at 11:09, Jason K wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like to congratulate you on the completion of such an eye opening web page AND theory, or should I say truth. ?Time? is taken for granted, or should I state the concept of time is taken for granted, or perhaps I shouldn?t even refer to time, period, J because how can we refer to something that doesn?t exist, right?
> > > > >
> > > > >> Thanks for visiting Rob's World! I'm glad you liked my page about the non-existence of time (and motion). Perhaps you'll come back and check out some of the other material.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if some people might challenge you that time is a force similar to that of ?gravity?, a force we cannot see, truly feel, touch, taste, etc. Although, I have to admit that gravities existence can probably be proven in the sense that in our world/dimension, everything that goes up must come down (you know what I mean). I guess I may have even answered my own question since times? existence cannot be proven in such a manner. Your thoughts, though, would be appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > >> People have suggested that time is a force in the sense of Gravity. I usually counter with the question 'What force does time effect?' How does it act on things? Then they fumble for an answer. Then I challenge them to define time without using time as part of the definition. Check out this link for an extended conversation regarding the nature of time: http://www.robsworld.org/mhonarcfiles/maillist.html <http://www.robsworld.org/mhonarcfiles/maillist.html>;
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance for answering my question.
> > > > >
> > > > >> I hope I've stimulated your thought buds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jason K, Salt Lake City, Utah
> > > > >
> > > > > This whole time thing has made me question further the ?existence? of things we take for granted, such as ?math?. We can?t physically touch ?math? except in a book or what we see on paper, which kind of gives it an artificial form, do you follow? Perhaps like time, math is a concept given ?existence? like the ?framework? thought of as time. My mind is blown if you can?t tell.
> > > > >
> > > > >> Oh, you're right on the money. There is no such 'thing' as math. Math is a language. It's an artificial construct, just like time. It's something that we've created in our minds. Time exists solely to help us understand our existence. Math is a way of communicating ideas.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks for the email.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> - Robert
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Time, like math is a construct that created in order to describe or comprehend or describe the things we don?t understand. While math is a artificial (we created it) linguistic construct, time is a natural (our mind creates it) mental construct. We gave that construct a name (time) and further refined it using various logical constructs such as years, days, minutes, seconds, etc.
> > > >
> > > > - Robert
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Digest Footer
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > akinetochronism mailing list
> > > > To post message: akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> > > > To unsubscribe: akinetochronism-unsubscribe at robsworld.org
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> > > >
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> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > End of akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1
> > > > *********************************************
> > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
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> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 21:09:49 +0000 (UTC)
> > > From: "Susan S." <sdsup at yahoo.com>
> > > To: No such thing as time or motion discussions
> > > <akinetochronism at robsworld.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [notime] reply to Andy W about Seth Speaks
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <891892175.3311781.1455484189461.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > Hello, Andy,Thanks for the suggestion (I just ordered it from my library after reading your post).Would you by any chance have any idea of a book that is bugging me because I just can't find it again?? I read it eight years ago and it was what gave me the idea that time is not real.I remember it was something like Seth (something channeled) and it explained reality as us travelling through something the way a worm crawls through fruit.? In other words, the fruit is our universe and we choose a path through it but we don't create?a future?we just travel through it all.Sue S.? ?
> > >
> > > From: Andy W <accessweb_ltd at hotmail.com>
> > > To: "akinetochronism at robsworld.org" <akinetochronism at robsworld.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 12:13 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [notime] akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1
> > >
> > > <!--#yiv5543870546 .yiv5543870546hmmessage P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv5543870546 body.yiv5543870546hmmessage{font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}-->Hi
> > >
> > > Not really sure how this forum works but I would definitely recommend Reading Seth speaks the validity of the soul which in my opinion is the definitive work on this subject & many others..
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: akinetochronism-request at robsworld.org
> > > > Subject: akinetochronism Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1
> > > > To: akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> > > > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 12:00:02 -0600
> > > >
> > > > Send akinetochronism mailing list submissions to
> > > > akinetochronism at robsworld.org
> > > >
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > > http://robsworld.org/mailman/listinfo/akinetochronism_robsworld.org
> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > > akinetochronism-request at robsworld.org
> > > >
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > > akinetochronism-owner at robsworld.org
> > > >
> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > > than "Re: Contents of akinetochronism digest..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Time, like gravity is an unseen force acting upon the
> > > > physical world (Robert Vaessen)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 16:19:24 -0700
> > > > From: Robert Vaessen <notime at robsworld.org>
> > > > To: No such thing as time or motion discussions
> > > > <akinetochronism at robsworld.org>
> > > > Subject: [notime] Time, like gravity is an unseen force acting upon
> > > > the physical world
> > > > Message-ID: <07849408-73D9-4849-8735-C65F46499527 at robsworld.org>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > > >
> > > > All -
> > > >
> > > > As mentioned in previous posts to this list - I?m planning/am re-posting some of my previous ?No Time? conversations. Conversations with correspondents who wrote (over the years) in regards to the ?No Time? treatise/ideas I wrote/posted at: <http://www.robsworld.org/notime.html <http://www.robsworld.org/notime.html>>;. I will be re-posting, dissecting, discussing that correspondence here; on the ?Akinetochronism? forum/mailing list. Here (see below) is another early discussion I engaged in with a correspondent. Please feel free to agree, disagree, or discuss these ?No Time / No Motion? ideas. In order to post/respond to the list all you have to do is draft and email and address it to: <akinetochronism at robsworld.org <mailto:akinetochronism at robsworld.org>>
> > > >
> > > > In this particular discussion/conversation I received an email from ?Jason K? - In that email he commented on something (gravity) that people sometimes use when they try to refute the non-existence of time.
> > > >
> > > > Note that some ?redaction? has been applied to protect Hedley's identity and occasionally for brevity?s sake. In the case of email addresses or full names, I simply omit the full email address or name.
> > > >
> > > > - Robert
> > > >
> > > > In this reposting, I have added my responses to the original post from Jason K. Jason's original email arrived on the 17th of Nov, 2004. My reply was sent on the 5th of Dec, 2004. Hedley's comments are in dark blue (with a single indent/quotation level). My comments are in light blue (with a double indent/quotation level).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 17, 2004, at 11:09, Jason K wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like to congratulate you on the completion of such an eye opening web page AND theory, or should I say truth. ?Time? is taken for granted, or should I state the concept of time is taken for granted, or perhaps I shouldn?t even refer to time, period, J because how can we refer to something that doesn?t exist, right?
> > > > >
> > > > >> Thanks for visiting Rob's World! I'm glad you liked my page about the non-existence of time (and motion). Perhaps you'll come back and check out some of the other material.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if some people might challenge you that time is a force similar to that of ?gravity?, a force we cannot see, truly feel, touch, taste, etc. Although, I have to admit that gravities existence can probably be proven in the sense that in our world/dimension, everything that goes up must come down (you know what I mean). I guess I may have even answered my own question since times? existence cannot be proven in such a manner. Your thoughts, though, would be appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > >> People have suggested that time is a force in the sense of Gravity. I usually counter with the question 'What force does time effect?' How does it act on things? Then they fumble for an answer. Then I challenge them to define time without using time as part of the definition. Check out this link for an extended conversation regarding the nature of time: http://www.robsworld.org/mhonarcfiles/maillist.html <http://www.robsworld.org/mhonarcfiles/maillist.html>;
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance for answering my question.
> > > > >
> > > > >> I hope I've stimulated your thought buds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jason K, Salt Lake City, Utah
> > > > >
> > > > > This whole time thing has made me question further the ?existence? of things we take for granted, such as ?math?. We can?t physically touch ?math? except in a book or what we see on paper, which kind of gives it an artificial form, do you follow? Perhaps like time, math is a concept given ?existence? like the ?framework? thought of as time. My mind is blown if you can?t tell.
> > > > >
> > > > >> Oh, you're right on the money. There is no such 'thing' as math. Math is a language. It's an artificial construct, just like time. It's something that we've created in our minds. Time exists solely to help us understand our existence. Math is a way of communicating ideas.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks for the email.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> - Robert
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Time, like math is a construct that created in order to describe or comprehend or describe the things we don?t understand. While math is a artificial (we created it) linguistic construct, time is a natural (our mind creates it) mental construct. We gave that construct a name (time) and further refined it using various logical constructs such as years, days, minutes, seconds, etc.
> > > >
> > > > - Robert
> > > >
> > > >
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