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On the outside looking in
- To: Rob Garrity
- Subject: On the outside looking in
- From: Robert L. Vaessen
- Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:29:14 -0700
- Cc: Patrick G Konshak ,
- In-reply-to: <4E9A0A56-394C-11D6-9450-0030657EA948>
I have to admit that your reply got me thinking about the
un-doability of a probability path, and time travel.
If all the nodes in a probability path are fixed and unchanging,
we could in effect perform time travel. Of course we'd first
have to figure out how to pick and chose the specific path we
wanted to visit. We could then go back and revisit any of those
nodes. Selecting a different path if we so chose. Time travel
would have no effect on the nodes themselves. The nodes are
fixed and unchanging. We would experience the events as if they
were real, but we would in fact just be visiting a different
series of nodes than those along the original path.
We would be able to perform 'What-If' scenarios to our hearts
content. Testing outcome probabilities, and selecting the nodes
which resulted in whatever outcome we preferred.
Of course to do any of this, we would have to figure out a way
to 'go back' in order to choose a different probability path.
On the subject of order and consciousness. If we are talking
about consciousness equalling a functioning physical brain, I'd
ask that you consider this...
Does consciousness extend beyond the physical. Do we have
consciousness when we exhibit no brain activity? p.s. Please
stop using conscience as consciousness. Conscience is sense of
right and wrong. Consciousness is sense of self, free will. i.e.
I think therefore I am. If you are unconscious you are unaware
of your self. When you are conscious you are aware of your self.
If we can have consciousness outside the physical, then I submit
that the brain/body is a receptacle for the consciousness
(soul?). What is out of body travel? People who have been
clinically dead, and then resuscitated, report experiences
outside of the physical when they recover.
If the consciousness can reside outside the physical, what are
its limitations when outside the brain. Do the limitations/laws
we've been talking about change when the consciousness is free
from the brain/body? Are the limitations imposed by the
capabilities/limitations of our brain?
Our ability to comprehend the matrix is limited by a series of
laws/limitations. Do those laws differ depending on the state of
our consciousness? Experiencing the matrix from within
(inhabiting a brain), or observing the matrix from outside (Out
Have you ever been unconscious?
What's the difference between dreaming and unconscious?
What about lucid dreaming?
Have you seen the movie 'Flatliners'?
On Saturday, March 16, 2002, at 07:11 , Rob Garrity wrote:
I have been sinking slowly in the deep end of your conversation
lately. Pretty 'rarified' stuff!
But one piece did get me to think a bit. that was Pat's comment
on the conscience as a powerful super computer versus an
outside mechanism which imposes sequential order upon us.
Two seemingly unrelated thoughts occurred to me:
1. Isaac Asimov's observation that something, (technology)
completely beyond our understanding would be indistinguishable
2. A story I heard about Thomas Edison. Supposedly, he was
asked to give a class to a group of physics students at
Harvard. He gave them one of his light bulbs (picture the
old-fashioned curly-que designs) and as their first assignment
they had to measure its volume. The next day several students
presented him with a vast array of formulas for measuring this
strange object. he looked at them, chuckled, (I assume) and
turned the light bulb upside down and filled it with water and
measured the water's volume.
Ok, now my point, such as it is: Talking about probability
paths as un-doable because we would need to be super computers
to be able to impose the appearance of a sequence on events is
kind of like people 200 years ago scoffing Jules Verne because
certainly there wasn't enough gun powder in the whole world to
send someone to the moon. We can't envision computing power of
any sort, mechanical or 'mental' that can handle the complexity
of a world striped of time and matter. So it must be infinitely
But as we find with natural laws once we understand them, they
are often remarkably simple and eloquent. If there is only
consciousness and the rules which guide it; and assuming these
rules are 'orderly' like cause and effect; then it would make
sense that these rules would be expressed by our consciousness
as 'sequential and orderly'.
It's not the only possibility. But back with Ocam's razor it
surely cuts things the cleanest.
Break the bonds of time. There is no such thing as time. You
simply are. All things simply exist.
Think in terms of Occam's Razor, Ernest Mach's principle of
economy; "Scientists must use the
simplest means of arriving at their results and exclude
everything not perceived by the senses.";
or the Parsimony Principle. The simplest explanation, no matter
how absurd, is the most likely.
A universe without time or motion eliminates a vast array of
conundrums. Escape from your
'path' and experience the whole 'matrix'. Read about the
nonexistence of time (and other such
nonsense) at: https://www.robsworld.org/notime.html