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On the outside looking in

Rob -

I have to admit that your reply got me thinking about the un-doability of a probability path, and time travel.

If all the nodes in a probability path are fixed and unchanging, we could in effect perform time travel. Of course we'd first have to figure out how to pick and chose the specific path we wanted to visit. We could then go back and revisit any of those nodes. Selecting a different path if we so chose. Time travel would have no effect on the nodes themselves. The nodes are fixed and unchanging. We would experience the events as if they were real, but we would in fact just be visiting a different series of nodes than those along the original path.

We would be able to perform 'What-If' scenarios to our hearts content. Testing outcome probabilities, and selecting the nodes which resulted in whatever outcome we preferred.

Of course to do any of this, we would have to figure out a way to 'go back' in order to choose a different probability path.


On the subject of order and consciousness. If we are talking about consciousness equalling a functioning physical brain, I'd ask that you consider this...

Does consciousness extend beyond the physical. Do we have consciousness when we exhibit no brain activity? p.s. Please stop using conscience as consciousness. Conscience is sense of right and wrong. Consciousness is sense of self, free will. i.e. I think therefore I am. If you are unconscious you are unaware of your self. When you are conscious you are aware of your self.

If we can have consciousness outside the physical, then I submit that the brain/body is a receptacle for the consciousness (soul?). What is out of body travel? People who have been clinically dead, and then resuscitated, report experiences outside of the physical when they recover.

If the consciousness can reside outside the physical, what are its limitations when outside the brain. Do the limitations/laws we've been talking about change when the consciousness is free from the brain/body? Are the limitations imposed by the capabilities/limitations of our brain?

Our ability to comprehend the matrix is limited by a series of laws/limitations. Do those laws differ depending on the state of our consciousness? Experiencing the matrix from within (inhabiting a brain), or observing the matrix from outside (Out of body)?

Have you ever been unconscious?

What's the difference between dreaming and unconscious?

What about lucid dreaming?

Have you seen the movie 'Flatliners'?

- Robert

On Saturday, March 16, 2002, at 07:11 , Rob Garrity wrote:

Hi guys,

I have been sinking slowly in the deep end of your conversation lately. Pretty 'rarified' stuff!
But one piece did get me to think a bit. that was Pat's comment on the conscience as a powerful super computer versus an outside mechanism which imposes sequential order upon us.

Two seemingly unrelated thoughts occurred to me:

1. Isaac Asimov's observation that something, (technology) completely beyond our understanding would be indistinguishable from God.

2. A story I heard about Thomas Edison. Supposedly, he was asked to give a class to a group of physics students at Harvard. He gave them one of his light bulbs (picture the old-fashioned curly-que designs) and as their first assignment they had to measure its volume. The next day several students presented him with a vast array of formulas for measuring this strange object. he looked at them, chuckled, (I assume) and turned the light bulb upside down and filled it with water and measured the water's volume.

Ok, now my point, such as it is: Talking about probability paths as un-doable because we would need to be super computers to be able to impose the appearance of a sequence on events is kind of like people 200 years ago scoffing Jules Verne because certainly there wasn't enough gun powder in the whole world to send someone to the moon. We can't envision computing power of any sort, mechanical or 'mental' that can handle the complexity of a world striped of time and matter. So it must be infinitely complex. god-like.

But as we find with natural laws once we understand them, they are often remarkably simple and eloquent. If there is only consciousness and the rules which guide it; and assuming these rules are 'orderly' like cause and effect; then it would make sense that these rules would be expressed by our consciousness as 'sequential and orderly'.

It's not the only possibility. But back with Ocam's razor it surely cuts things the cleanest.


Break the bonds of time. There is no such thing as time. You simply are. All things simply exist.
Think in terms of Occam's Razor, Ernest Mach's principle of economy; "Scientists must use the
simplest means of arriving at their results and exclude everything not perceived by the senses.";
or the Parsimony Principle. The simplest explanation, no matter how absurd, is the most likely.
A universe without time or motion eliminates a vast array of conundrums. Escape from your
'path' and experience the whole 'matrix'. Read about the nonexistence of time (and other such
nonsense) at: https://www.robsworld.org/notime.html